Curse

upier · Sep 05, 2009, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=16

My build. Try it and lemme know what you think. Preferably in HM, standard 8-man half-decent PUG team at least.

IMO, it fits perfectly in the team. The rest of the team is usually dmging enemies as best as they can, while you're finishing them off at incredible speed (plus other stuff).

Personally, I love the build, and in PvE I've played with almost every class.

ps: Just to make it clear - overall, Mesmer *is* underpowered in PvE and I am not stating otherwise.

I've been running a similar version
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...07&postcount=8
Works like a charm.
But looking at it objectively - a MoP AP nuker is better.

The problem is how easy PvE is and how pretty much anything that isn't complete crap works.
You don't want a PuG build.
You want a team build, where you are dealing with 64 skills that work together. This is going to enable you to play GW at a higher level.
And that's the issue here. Given how PvE is designed, there is pretty much nothing that is desired that a mesmer can bring to a party that someone else can't do better.

The Josip · Sep 05, 2009, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Haven't tried MOP so can't comment on that. As for "others do something better", well, let's be honest, a lot depends on skill balancing. I mean, if you give Paragon a skill that makes party indestructible, then the others will have a difficult time to compete, will they not?

Honestly, I think that looking at PvE from power-perspective is flawed. That's PvP way. When I PvE, I think of style, I think of elegance, I think of pure fun. Sure, I could go with Imbagon, but I tried Paragon a bit in PvE and I find it dead boring. It's the most boring class I've ever tried in PvE.

Let's face it, PvE isn't about challenge. Not even HM. I've been in PUG groups that had catastrophic builds. With difficulty, these groups still manage to do the mission/quest. Times of old THK are gone. HM THK is easier today than old NM THK before nerfs. And it's not because players got better. Something is seriously wrong here.

So, I am very satisfied with my performance with that build, and in average PUG I think I'm contributing more than 2/3 of the team. Am I doing better than the best Necro/Ele/Paragon build? Maybe not, but I have fun

I don't play Mesmer in PvE because it's the best PvE class, but because it's the one I like the most. I had a lvl20 mesmer even in Prophecies when they were in far worse position than they are now.

Quote:

there is pretty much nothing that is desired that a mesmer can bring to a party that someone else can't do better.

Honestly, I'd rather thave AP mesmer than a warrior in my team. I don't know why is it that warriors are thought of so highly. Is there anything I am missing? I am not talking here of special roles in special missions, but of some typical mission/quest in PvE. What exactly does warrior bring? I feel that in HM I do more dmg than warrior does with my mesmer. My survivability is better too. I was in Bogroot recently and Warriors were dying left and right from all Putrid's or Death Novas, I forgot what it was.

What does warrior bring to the table? Aggro? You mentioned organized teams that use 64 skills. Even in average PUG in HM I see no need for tanking because things die fast and no one dies with a bit of care. Aggro would just slow things down IMO. So what do warriors bring?

Xenomortis · Sep 05, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Honestly, I'd rather thave AP mesmer than a warrior in my team. I don't know why is it that warriors are thought of so highly. Is there anything I am missing? I am not talking here of special roles in special missions, but of some typical mission/quest in PvE. What exactly does warrior bring? I feel that in HM I do more dmg than warrior does with my mesmer. My survivability is better too. I was in Bogroot recently and Warriors were dying left and right from all Putrid's or Death Novas, I forgot what it was.

What does warrior bring to the table? Aggro? You mentioned organized teams that use 64 skills. Even in average PUG in HM I see no need for tanking because things die fast and no one dies with a bit of care. Aggro would just slow things down IMO. So what do warriors bring?

Warriors deal very high amounts of damage and can bring Save Yourselves. If the warrior is any good, your damage will pale in comparison. Warriors have good synergy with Necromancers too and together, they can deal immense amounts of damage to a mob.

Tanking is a waste of time and if the warriors are dying a lot, you're doing something wrong.

I would much prefer a human warrior (so long as he's competent) than any mesmer in my team unless I really need the mesmer for something specific (which I won't).

Daesu · Sep 05, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

The fundamental flaw in your argument here is that you are not proving why fast casting is not that usefull when specced into, you're just repeating yourself when the argument has already been countered.

I have mentioned before that fast casting is not that useful because there are other alternatives like equipment and mindbender.

Quote:

The argument about the game being playable without a primary attribute being specced into is invalid and meaningless. As has been said above. You cannot argue that this proves 'fast casting doesnt help that much' because there are too many variables that come into play. What foes you're fighting, your team composition, your build.

The problem with fast casting is that, unlike soul reaping, you still need to bring some form of energy management skills. This usually means at least wasted one or two skill slots for energy management and additional casting time needed to cast those energy management skills.

Quote:

To the equipment comment, you said it has made the fast casting attribute not so unique to mesmers anymore. But I disagree. A mesmer with a reduce casting time set is still going to be a faster caster than a monk with the same. Fast casting is a stable continuous buff to the mesmer so they can focus on wielding their +20e staffs, or a reducing recharge time set, which makes them still excel in this area than other proffesions.

Fast casting animation has a hard limit. Also +20e staffs only give you the initial boost, and does not replenish your energy as much as soul reaping in a drawn out battle.

Quote:

Most importantly, I think, is that fast casting makes Mesmers flexible. When it comes to spells, mesmers are simply amazing at taking another proffesions build and running it effeciantly in their bar with little to no spec in the attribute. To this I think they are second only to the necromancer whose amazing energy management allows them to abuse all other skills.

Sure, mesmers are the jack of all trade but also a master of none, which is why they dont really have a key role. Whatever they do, you can almost certainly find another profession that does it better than them.

The issue is not that mesmers are not viable in HM. They are viable and can be quite effective, but because of the power creep and buffs to the other professions, they are weaker comparatively to the other offensive casters.

Xenomortis · Sep 05, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The problem with fast casting is that, unlike soul reaping, you still need to bring some form of energy management skills. This usually means at least wasted one or two skill slots for energy management and additional casting time needed to cast those energy management skills.

You also have to have a 3 way spec - Fast Casting, Inspiration (or any other e management line) and whatever line you want to spec into to actually achieve anything. If you don't spec FC, you might as well not be a mesmer. If you don't spec inspiration, your final line needs some form of decent energy management.

Yes, it is possible to construct a half decent build only speccing into FC and Inspiration, but you'll be limited.

Now, this three way spec isn't necessarily a problem, but it's something you need to consider.

Daesu · Sep 05, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You also have to have a 3 way spec - Fast Casting, Inspiration (or any other e management line) and whatever line you want to spec into to actually achieve anything. If you don't spec FC, you might as well not be a mesmer. If you don't spec inspiration, your final line needs some form of decent energy management.

Yes, it is possible to construct a half decent build only speccing into FC and Inspiration, but you'll be limited.

Now, this three way spec isn't necessarily a problem, but it's something you need to consider.

Thanks. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Let me take this build an example: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=16

AP mesmers are currently quite popular because of the skill recharge and some amount of energy return when the target dies. But to use AP you need to invest in Deadly Arts, some points in Inspiration for your energy management skills, some points into domination for your offensive skills, and lastly some points into fast casting. That is a total of 4 attributes to invest in.

An AP build for a curse necro, can invest in Deadly Arts, Soul Reaping, and Curse. That is only a total of 3 attributes plus, unlike the mesmer, you dont need to bring energy management skills if you dont want to, so you have the full 8 skill slots to play with.

The Josip · Sep 05, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Warriors deal very high amounts of damage

Sorry for being a bit sceptical, but this is based on what? Actualy observations, Isle of Nameless test or? Give me an example of skillbar that deals very high amount of warrior dmg in PvE, if possible. OK I know dmg can be buffed in various ways, true, but these buffs require skills as well. Let's not complicate now, I am really curious about it. Also, I hope it's taken into account (=lower dps) that warriors also need to run and catch targets. Movement, no matter how small, reduces dps.

Important: I'd like to differentiate two things:
1. PUG teams
2. Highly-super-organized-PvE teams

To make debate more easier, I will exclude #2. This is because almost no one plays PvE like that. The number of these teams is super-small, and when formed they can play with one hand if they want. They will also probably go with Assassin than Warrior (IMO but I might be wrong).

So, let's focus on contribution to the average or decent PUG team. In such groups your warrior will most likely not have SoH or such buffs, there might not be MoP/Barbs or who knows what.

Yes, I know Upier said the team has 64 skills and now we should look at what's optimal, but I have difficulty with that because I prefer to focus on realistic environment, not ideal one that is almost never seen in practice.

When I joined a PvE team, I look at what is better - this warrior who joined in, or me. I don't see much point in comparing who would be better in ideal team A. For academic purposes, sure, no problem. But otherwise, pointless.

upier · Sep 05, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Haven't tried MOP so can't comment on that. As for "others do something better", well, let's be honest, a lot depends on skill balancing. I mean, if you give Paragon a skill that makes party indestructible, then the others will have a difficult time to compete, will they not?

Honestly, I think that looking at PvE from power-perspective is flawed. That's PvP way. When I PvE, I think of style, I think of elegance, I think of pure fun. Sure, I could go with Imbagon, but I tried Paragon a bit in PvE and I find it dead boring. It's the most boring class I've ever tried in PvE.

Let's face it, PvE isn't about challenge. Not even HM. I've been in PUG groups that had catastrophic builds. With difficulty, these groups still manage to do the mission/quest. Times of old THK are gone. HM THK is easier today than old NM THK before nerfs. And it's not because players got better. Something is seriously wrong here.

So, I am very satisfied with my performance with that build, and in average PUG I think I'm contributing more than 2/3 of the team. Am I doing better than the best Necro/Ele/Paragon build? Maybe not, but I have fun

I don't play Mesmer in PvE because it's the best PvE class, but because it's the one I like the most. I had a lvl20 mesmer even in Prophecies when they were in far worse position than they are now.

And that's the reason why I play my mesmer and not my warrior.
But we aren't discussing if something is fun or not.
We are discussing if something is effective.
Now, this pretty much won't matter for 90% (or more!) or PvE. We play with hench, heroes or PuGs, we don't use customized weapons, no Sup Vigors, ... so playing with a mesmer instead of a warrior won't really matter.
PvE is designed to let people that fail win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Honestly, I'd rather thave AP mesmer than a warrior in my team. I don't know why is it that warriors are thought of so highly. Is there anything I am missing? I am not talking here of special roles in special missions, but of some typical mission/quest in PvE. What exactly does warrior bring? I feel that in HM I do more dmg than warrior does with my mesmer. My survivability is better too. I was in Bogroot recently and Warriors were dying left and right from all Putrid's or Death Novas, I forgot what it was.

What does warrior bring to the table? Aggro? You mentioned organized teams that use 64 skills. Even in average PUG in HM I see no need for tanking because things die fast and no one dies with a bit of care. Aggro would just slow things down IMO. So what do warriors bring?

The amount of damage a buffed-up physical does is insane. So you add more of these guys. And then, you need to make sure you don't waste your slots on guys that do not contribute to that goal. So you end up either adding physicals for massive damage or you add up bitches - guys that buff up these physicals.
Given the mesmer's skills, he fits into the support role, but given the strength of these skills - other guys outperform him in it.

Probably the best thing you could do is run around removing enches and hexes. Shatter Hex, while insane, is outclassed by Smite Hex being in the same line as Strength Of Honor, and the mesmer ench removals are outclassed by the stupidly short recharges of necro's ench removal options, which the guy can take because his Orders bar leaves him with enough room.
And if you then have room for another supporter - Splinter weapon and GDW are godly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Important: I'd like to differentiate two things:
1. PUG teams
2. Highly-super-organized-PvE teams

To make debate more easier, I will exclude #2. This is because almost no one plays PvE like that. The number of these teams is super-small, and when formed they can play with one hand if they want. They will also probably go with Assassin than Warrior (IMO but I might be wrong).

So, let's focus on contribution to the average or decent PUG team. In such groups your warrior will most likely not have SoH or such buffs, there might not be MoP/Barbs or who knows what.

Yes, I know Upier said the team has 64 skills and now we should look at what's optimal, but I have difficulty with that because I prefer to focus on realistic environment, not ideal one that is almost never seen in practice.

When I joined a PvE team, I look at what is better - this warrior who joined in, or me. I don't see much point in comparing who would be better in ideal team A. For academic purposes, sure, no problem. But otherwise, pointless.

That's the issue.
You don't fail PvE with a crappy bar. So if any kind of discussion can be had about what is good and what isn't - we need to exclude stuff that actually WINS PvE!

The Josip · Sep 05, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

An AP build for a curse necro, can invest in Deadly Arts, Soul Reaping, and Curse. That is only a total of 3 attributes plus, unlike the mesmer, you dont need to bring energy management skills if you dont want to, so you have the full 8 skill slots to play with.

You mean something like this:
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/A_Mark_of_Pain_Nuker
?

Honestly, the build doesn't thrill me at all. I prefer Me/A

Attribute distribution I use is: 14/9/8/8, and despite what you think it's not too spread out in this case. The only DA skill is AP, and the only Insp skill I use is Ether Feast. Both work good enough at 8att. 9 fc is standard, and 14 domination is the highest possible one can get (unless using higher runes).

Now excuse me, I have some destroyers to kill

Xenomortis · Sep 05, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

So, let's focus on contribution to the average or decent PUG team. In such groups your warrior will most likely not have SoH or such buffs, there might not be MoP/Barbs or who knows what.

This is the problem. I know very few decent players that would join a PuG. I may do it for the odd mission in NM when I don't fancy H/Hing it, but the rest of the time it's either me and my heroes, or me and my guildies. Both of those scenarios result in my organising something and I imagine this applies to a lot of people.

Daesu · Sep 05, 2009, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

You mean something like this:
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/A_Mark_of_Pain_Nuker
?

Honestly, the build doesn't thrill me at all. I prefer Me/A

Attribute distribution I use is: 14/9/8/8, and despite what you think it's not too spread out in this case. The only DA skill is AP, and the only Insp skill I use is Ether Feast. Both work good enough at 8att. 9 fc is standard, and 14 domination is the highest possible one can get (unless using higher runes).

Sure, they are "good enough" to kill in HM. But just because you play a mesmer good enough doesn't mean another profession can't do it better. Therefore, the key role for such a build still belongs to another profession.

JDRyder · Sep 05, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Sorry for being a bit sceptical, but this is based on what? Actualy observations, Isle of Nameless test or? Give me an example of skillbar that deals very high amount of warrior dmg in PvE, if possible. OK I know dmg can be buffed in various ways, true, but these buffs require skills as well. Let's not complicate now, I am really curious about it. Also, I hope it's taken into account (=lower dps) that warriors also need to run and catch targets. Movement, no matter how small, reduces dps.

Important: I'd like to differentiate two things:
1. PUG teams
2. Highly-super-organized-PvE teams

To make debate more easier, I will exclude #2. This is because almost no one plays PvE like that. The number of these teams is super-small, and when formed they can play with one hand if they want. They will also probably go with Assassin than Warrior (IMO but I might be wrong).

So, let's focus on contribution to the average or decent PUG team. In such groups your warrior will most likely not have SoH or such buffs, there might not be MoP/Barbs or who knows what.

Yes, I know Upier said the team has 64 skills and now we should look at what's optimal, but I have difficulty with that because I prefer to focus on realistic environment, not ideal one that is almost never seen in practice.

When I joined a PvE team, I look at what is better - this warrior who joined in, or me. I don't see much point in comparing who would be better in ideal team A. For academic purposes, sure, no problem. But otherwise, pointless.

Back when I was in TAM "which would fall under Highly-super-organized-PvE teams" We just did BYOB for just about everything. Sure for the 12 man faction missions and DOA we had pre-made builds, but I don't think any pug teams do those.

Depending on the area, this guy who was in the guild who always played Warrior used

Earth shaker
CB
Crude swing
FGJ
Flail
EC
LC

May not be the highest DPS build, but it was useful and our team was rock stable

What I was lucky enough to play warrior I used

Dev hammer
CB
Hammer bash
Mokele smash
Flail
EC
FGJ

Mainly I just ran in and said "RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO yo boss ele" or monk w/e needed to not do anything

Damage is good n all in PvE but theres a point where having more is pointless and you'd be better off shutting something down. Having nothing but damage is like having a Monk bar full of healing spells that all recharge in 2 secs.

As for high war DPS builds, hell just any PvP bar really lol. Sure you can argue that its spike damage but how hard is it really to get adren? In PvE you can spam the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO out of a basic Eviscerate build

The Josip · Sep 05, 2009, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Well if the conclusion is that mesmer is underpowered in highly-organized PvE team that I agree on and always have.

But I am also saying that Mesmer with proper build can be surprisingly good in normal PuG team. I think this is important because of general view of mesmers as barely useful. And guild team won't kick you out anyway.

Xenomortis · Sep 05, 2009, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

You mean something like this:
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/A_Mark_of_Pain_Nuker
?

Honestly, the build doesn't thrill me at all. I prefer Me/A

The MoP build has great synergy with physicals. When we construct H/H teams or teams with guildies, synergy and the result is of great concern.
That Me/A build has limited potential in that regard, but is far from useless. However, I regard it as greatly inferior.

JDRyder · Sep 05, 2009, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Well if the conclusion is that mesmer is underpowered in highly-organized PvE team that I agree on and always have.

But I am also saying that Mesmer with proper build can be surprisingly good in normal PuG team. I think this is important because of general view of mesmers as barely useful. And guild team won't kick you out anyway.

TAM had quite a few mesmers when I was in it as well, was rare we didn't have one. I think the problem is people think mesmer is a DPS class, when its a support class. Getting mad at mesmers not doing DPS is like getting mad at monks for not doing DPS. At the end of the day its PvE anything works as long as your not stupid.

maxxfury · Sep 05, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The MoP build has great synergy with physicals. When we construct H/H teams or teams with guildies, synergy and the result is of great concern.
That Me/A build has limited potential in that regard, but is far from useless. However, I regard it as greatly inferior.

If people havent seen the carnage a mop nuker plus a couple of physicals (or casters with spears) can out put...its ******* insane! how many 42's fill the screen and how fast the mob goes to mush.

No way a mes can compare to THAT damage, infact im not sure ANY caster can compare to it tbh.

Mesmers loosing COP took their DD slot out of a party. True ALL casters lost COP but still, should have been Fails with under 4fc imo(or something like that)

Cuilan · Sep 05, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

I have mentioned before that fast casting is not that useful because there are other alternatives like equipment and mindbender.

Mesmers can carry a staff... Fast casting is built in. You did a poor job in countering that argument.

Quote:

Sure, mesmers are the jack of all trade but also a master of none, which is why they dont really have a key role. Whatever they do, you can almost certainly find another profession that does it better than them.

Mesmers hex and spread conditions? They have a role, they aren't jack of all trades, and they're flexible at the same time. Can't see how that can be confused.

Quote:

The issue is not that mesmers are not viable in HM. They are viable and can be quite effective, but because of the power creep and buffs to the other professions, they are weaker comparatively to the other offensive casters.

They have fast casting which can be used offensively or defensively.

The Josip · Sep 05, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

If people havent seen the carnage a mop nuker plus a couple of physicals (or casters with spears) can out put...its ******* insane! how many 42's fill the screen and how fast the mob goes to mush.

That's all OK, but in the end, what's the point?
I've been in mostly caster teams where targets go down real fast. Faster killing than that would equal I don't know, just walking through the field? That's all ok, but I feel this marathon is killing the fun.

As to mesmer in PvE, here's why they are incompatible: as a Mesmer, you want your target to live for a while. So you can have fun with it

Yet, PvE is mostly about how fast you kill.

Artisan Archer · Sep 05, 2009, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Sure, mesmers are the jack of all trade but also a master of none, which is why they dont really have a key role. Whatever they do, you can almost certainly find another profession that does it better than them.

Mesmer are masters of shutdown, that's where they excell. Problem is shutting down stuff in PvE is neither usefull nor 1-2-3 easy.
While there are some hard bosses (kanaxai etc) where shut down is needed, the majority of pve is just buttonbashing and big numbers. Not something a mesmer excells at.

JDRyder · Sep 05, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artisan Archer

Mesmer are masters of shutdown, that's where they excell. Problem is shutting down stuff in PvE is neither usefull nor 1-2-3 easy.
While there are some hard bosses (kanaxai etc) where shut down is needed, the majority of pve is just buttonbashing and big numbers. Not something a mesmer excells at.

Ill call BS on this. Shut down is useful, its just that most people are too stupid to learn because they've been told their whole GW life that DPS is the only way.

If I had to choose between the team with less DPS and more shut down, or the team with all DPS and no shut down, I'd almost always choose the shut down team because that team is going to be WAY more stable and will fail less. A team with more DPS is not going to be killing that much faster anyway, as said before having all DPS is like having a monk bar with all heals.

Quote:

As to mesmer in PvE, here's why they are incompatible: as a Mesmer, you want your target to live for a while. So you can have fun with it Yet, PvE is mostly about how fast you kill.

Thats why you don't shut down the target that was pinged